The cold 'rattles'

[david allan]

mine does rattle upto around 5min
I dont think it does go over 5min

But will have a look tom morning
melb is still bloody cold.

good to know if it rattles to much then it isnt normal.
lucky its under warranty
injectors are bloody expensive

[olcoolone]

This is normal for the D4D engines, we have a new Hiace with the same engine and I think it is a little noisier then our Hilux when cold (sounds like a tin can full of gravel).

The SR will be noisier then the SR5 due to insulation.

The Prado D4D do it just as bad but are not noticeable inside the vehicle due to better insulation then the Hilux's.

[Stu-k]

Oldmans 200 series diesel does it to, must be a Toyota thing

[D4DLUX]

Ok the cold rattle when under load only when cold is { detternation } or pinning for a desiel that has 18:1 comp this is why its so loud.
Iv gone to toyota three times and they agree with what im saying but they dont know how to fix this. but i do know this rattle is NOT normal as we have the same proublem with some of the common rail systems cars which run the same system {denso}.
Toyoto have treid changing the injector timing as they belive its carbon build up this helped but 1000klm later still there. Now they are odering some new injectors to try this so i will know more next week.
My brother have the same hilux as me bought at the same time with the same mods and does not haved the rattle at all.
Hope this help some of you out but i would realy take your car in a get it checked.

Matt

[olcoolone]

Had the same discussion on another forum where the guy said it was not normal and argue the point but believe me it is normal.

When Toyota mechanics have a problem they can't fix at a dealer level the problems get passed onto Toyota for a possible cure or further investigation by their engineers or suppliers.

Toyota as with any other manufacture takes possible issues very seriously and investigate fully.

This is a very common noise and if it was an issue they would address it very quickly.

There could be a number of reasons why one vehicle does it and another doesn't.

A lot of people on this forum and the Prado forum have encountered this noise,If it was not common I would be concerned.

Don't forget the D4D motors have been around since about 2002 and are in many other Toyota's and are very reliable.

It's not just Toyota's that have this noise but most CRD engine manufactures.

Google "Toyota D4D injector knock" and have a look.

People get to concerned about noises thinking if it does not sound right something is wrong.

The odd vehicle may have a problem that is a concern but no major problems have appeared in the D4D engines yet....except the V8's.

If it was a 3Lt. Nissan Patrol I WOULD BE CONCERNED and I would be arranging a meeting with my bank manager!

[Shrek]

I'm going to throw this out there. Some of you diesel drivers will remember "glowing" before starting the engine, which basically heats the combustion chamber so the engine can start when it's cold. In advanced diesel engines we don't have to do this because the ECU retards the timing, spraying in the diesel later which allows the air to compress/heat up more before the ignition phase. I'm pretty sure D4D's work on this system. This may be unusual engine behaviour that you are experiencing.

I really apologise if I'm way off here.

[D4DLUX]

Well to say that it is normal or not toyota have brought there tech up from head office to look into it and does admit that this is a proublem.
if this was normal than explain why some have it and some dont.
I have sent an oil test away to the castrol lab and they will be able to see the wear so i sould get this back next week.

[olcoolone]

I wish you luck at solving the world wide D4D knock, it would be good is you could solve a problem that Toyota world wide can't.

I would expect Toyota to fix this knock as the engine has been in production for over 6 years.

The knock in your engine I think may be different to the knock that 99% of other D4D owners experience, like most thing man made or natural mistakes can be made and it would not be the first time something has failed in an individual vehicle.

[D4DLUX]

im on here to tell the proublems that i have been having with my car hopefull this my help some one thats it

[Steve9R]

yeah.. i went down this track over 12 months ago (when this tread was started)..

My father owns a 2005 SR hilux and compared to mine rattles a lot more.. for example.. leaving my house we have to go up a steep hill to get out, mine rattles for about 5secs then is normal again, and his rattles all the way up the hill and out onto the main road.. (3-5mins)..

the only 'real' difference (according to Toyota) is insulation (my SR5 vs his SR), and oil.. he uses the Penrite HPR, and i use Castrol magnatec.. but in saying that he's tried the magnatec that i use and its made no difference.. he's had his into diesel specialists and back to toyota about it on numerous occassions.. and has had toyota techs look at his too, outcome : "within spec."

Good luck with your endeavours though and keep us posted..

Steve

[olcoolone]

Have a look at this post on another forum regarding the rattle.

http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php ... uel+filter

Love to hear your coments.

[D4DLUX]

olcoolone what makes you think this rattle is normal is it other threds or do you work with deisel motor? As a tech iv done a lot of training on common rail systems and are not happy with this rattle noise as it was not there before why now.

[olcoolone]

we are a Denso service agent and we have discussed this with them.

The D4D series of engines have been out since about 2002 and this "so called" problem has been around since then.

If it was a reliability issue whether in a warranty period or not Toyota would of addressed it by now, much like Nissan did with the 3Lt. Patrols melting pistons.

Toyota looks past their warranty period for reliability and into the future maybe 15 years for issues, is they didn't they would loose there "reliability statement" and secondhand Toyota's would be worthless so believe me it is a concern for them to have problems.

Or they would of addressed it under the NVH engineering program (Noise, Vibration and Harshness).

Toyota and Denso take issues very seriously and will jump on any problems, we as service agents get paid by Denso to find faults in there products and report back.

They have a special department set up to handle component failure......it's like the Jack Daniels add on TV where they aren't that busy because they have very few failures.

As this noise only appears when cold for a few minutes it would be fair to say it is from the two stage injection cycle when cold.

We have two D4D engines, one in our 2005 SR5 Hilux and another in out 3 month old Hiace van.

Both these vehicles do it and the Hiace is louder then the Hilux.

With the noise being there now and not before and some vehicles being worse then others might have something to do with the ECU self learn function that might of altered the cam timing, injector timing, duty cycle, supply rate due to air intake temp, outside air temp, density of the air or driving style, try disconnecting the battery for 15 minutes and see if the noise changes......the ECU would of gone back to base setting.

Have a look at all th new trucks coming out specially the Japaneses and European brands and see how much sound absorption material is around the head and block, this is because they are noisier then before from the injection system and the way fuel is combusted.

Have a look at the European diesel cars and how much sound deadening the have around the engine and under the bonnet, much the same as intake noise from petrol vehicle and the mufflers they use (on the intake) to quieten them down.

You have to remember that the people at dealerships don't drive the same vehicle we do and for the same period of time.....they may of driven 30 D4D's with this noise and never picked up on it until you mentioned it to them but if they drove the same vehicle regularly they would hear it.

If there is an issue this will cost Toyota everything now and in the future.

CRD is such a new technology regarding fuel filter changing, different noise, fuel additives and what you can't do people have not adapted to it yet.

D4DLUX in your training they would of said to you that CRD systems are nothing like the old fuel injection systems and mechanics will have to learn the new way of doing things.

[D4DLUX]

Well said and yes i understand that common rail system are not the same but i dont understand that someone such as your self that deals with denso looks past this proublem and states it as normal. Desiel dettornation is not normal and should not be over looked just cause its common rail or cause toyota said this is ok. If a 5l came into your workshop dettornating you would say this is normal? Just maybe we have two total diffrent noises.
I will know more next week and let you know what happens.

[D4DLUX]

If you deal with denso you would know that Holden Rodeo, Mitsubishi Triton, Mazda B6 and i belive nissan new common rail patrol all use this same denso common rail system, and they dont have cold rattle, why should our $40000 plus hilux have it.

[Macca]

This has been a facinating post, My 05 has rattled when cold since day one with very little throttle application.

I drive it like a volvo, so it doesn't rattle, up to our local post office intersection about 400 mtrs away and it is not there after then.

I have had a Diesel Power and a Stienbauer chip with no difference at all.

Also additives have made no difference.

I thought it was getting more fuel than it could burn untill the combustion chamber warmed up a bit, as diesels are compression ignition I thought it was normal.

Macca

[McSumWay]

Had mine doing this during the winter months for 120000km now. During winter I make sure that I start and allow my car to warm until the water temp comes up to at least 1/4. Takes around 4 minutes from 0 degrees. Presto....no rattle

[olcoolone]

Quote"Desiel dettornation is not normal and should not be over looked just cause its common rail or cause toyota said this is ok. If a 5l came into your workshop dettornating you would say this is normal? Just maybe we have two total diffrent noises."

Diesel detination when the vehicle is warm is different to diesel knock when the vehicle is cold.

The knock that you are talking about may be different to the knock most D4D owners experience.

I don't acutely do general mechanical work anymore and we aren't diesel specialists either, what Denso does is have training sessions for the specialist in certain category witch is a close training course and than the have their open training that any Denso service center can do, it's still very in depth but the difference is we don't need to know the nity grity of rebuilding something or how far to machine something in a rebuild but we can still obtain the information to a degree.

Some of the training is done with the specialised dealers from the respected fields their.

Our job is to do basic diagnostics and then arrange the specialist in that field to do the work, we are specialists in our field but not diesel..... haven't got a spare couple of million for the gear.

I only have a low understanding of how somethings work...I'm only a simple person .....LOL

Anyway lets move on:

The reason some of the other vehicles mentioned don't make noise is because the people who bought them are to stupid to know any different...they don't know what they are driving and whether it is petrol or diesel.......Seriously it may come down to different cylinder head design, thicker water jackets, different combustion chamber design, injection system variants, cam timing and the list goes on.

The biggest thing I think it is is ECU programming for the cold cycle and this rattle might be associated with meeting emission standards.

Well if there is a problem why haven't they fixed it in the last 6 years?

Do you honestly thing Toyota or Denso would be thinking "yeap we know there is something wrong but we won't fix it" or "maybe if we keep quiet it will go away".

Hell they may even be thinking "who cares!".

As I said before if it is a problem Toyota and Denso would be committing industrial suicide if they have not addressed it yet.

I might have to jump on the bandwagon as well because I've got two vehicles that do it...that means there would be at least 250,000 vehicles world wide that has this problem that Toyota or Denso can fix.



Have a look at this PDF.
http://www.fev.biz/content/public/secur ... tNoise.pdf
It might shed some light on it.



Let me know what you come up with.

You would have to be very naive to think Toyota and Denso are pulling the wool over your eyes and they don't know how to fix it......or don't care.

[Brett B]

I agree with you alcooloan on this one.

My mate at Toyota says its normal for the new D4D's to do this.

Mine has done it since the day I got it 3 years ago, the bosses new D4D Prado does it.

If you dont like the rattle I think you either get used to it or sell it because it isn't going to go away.

I drove a Jeep CRD a few weeks ago, I cold started it and drove straight away I was listening hard for a rattle and it did it but was slightly quieter.

[Parr]

mine rattles every morning as soon as the revs climb over 1k to about 1500 then it stops this keeps happing untill the temp comes up