Front Suspension Research

[hiluxdan]

Rod,
I got the bilsteins and hd kings up front and i love it.
Not sure of the bilstein part no. but i think mine were prado ones.
My suspension bloke reckons the billies are on the lower groove setting, can still go higher but its high enough for me.
Dan

[rodw]

Thought I'd cross-reference these threads as they has some great US links:

[URL]http://www.newhilux.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1804[/URL]

[URL]http://www.newhilux.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1803[/URL]

GHG, I had a chat to Wizard this morning, Charlie is not there any longer, but the guy I spoke to (Brad?) knew all about them. Certainly very impressive. About $2,600 for the front kit. Each side fits in 45 minutes he reckoned. Be interesting to hear from Lowrange, the same setup in the US is available for $1,600 so you could maybe save about $1k by importing direct.

I was hoping to do something to my front for about $1k, so I was definitely off the mark by a long shot.

Rod

[4Hilux]

How big a tyre do you want to be running, has gotta be one of the first questions ya ask yourself I reckon. Not much sense putting in 3-3.5 inch lift, if you are only going to be on 31's........

Personally, I'd be using something like Ultimate in the front, or Dobinsons springs, which will lift you above std height even with yr current heavy frt end, will be reasonable on the wallet, & still give enough clearance to run 265/75R16s if you want to......

[rodw]

4hilux,

Don't necessarilly agree, I stick 32" tyres on and I raise my rig 12mm, If I do a bit of trimming, I might get 33" on. Both of these options are illegal (Even 31" are suspect!). From what I see, if I add 75mm to the suspension, that will give me 300mm clearance under the front TJM underbody guards, which is pretty good and the lift will be still questionably legal... (well discrete anyway!). I learnt with my Suzi that the strength of the IFS truck is that there is potential to get plenty of clearance under the front of the rig which is much harder to achieve with a live axle that has this solid beam right accross the truck...

So far, the best option on this thread I think is the Total Chaos kit that GHG has talked about. Shame it is so expensive, but when you look at the prices in the US, Wizard is quite reasonable, If you don't believe me, get a quote from Snake Racing for a Calmini kit and then compare their price with what they are in the US and run the currency conversion through [URL]http://www.xe.com[/URL]

Still waiting for the detail from Sean and Chris at Low Range in the US.

Rod

[Hilux Max]

Rod,

I doubt you'll fit 33's with only a 12mm lift!

when fitting tyres, you MUST consider the suspension travel you will be getting or subjecting the vehicle to. No good running 33's around town with a 2 inch lift and getting no rubbing, but the first rut you put your hilux through and the tyre rips the flare right off!

when putting on larger rubber, you take you r vehicle offroad somewhere, a ditch on the side of the road is good as you can cross axle the truck and stuff the tyre hard up into the guards. Then if you still have clearance with wheels straight ahead, turn the steering both ways and mark where its rubbing.

go home, trim and bash and then go try again until you have clearance all the way around. its what must be done to be able to successfully and trouble freely offroad.

anyway,

Rod, I just measured under my TJM bashplate in the garage after reading your post above and I have 34cm clearance, thats with half worn Buckshots.

[rodw]

Mmaax,

Sorry, I was not very clear above. might have had one scotch too many when I wrote the response. I personally reckon there are many things we can do to improve off road performance other than put big rubber on. I'll be happy with 31" tyres as I drive this rig 50km/day return into the city to work. I might one day add another set of larger off road Swampers or 'Pedes (around 32-33"). I really have to consider overall vehicle height clearance as already I have had to ban myself from one local shopping centre that only has 2.04m clearance, so will try to keep under 2.1m which is a a more standard building design height.

What I was trying to say that if you increase the rubber by an inch, you only get an extra 12mm lift.

At the moment with stock suspension, dual battery, bar and winch, I have 220mm clearance under the TJM guards which is abysmal. If I had your tyres on, it'd be about 243mm, So to match your lift, looks like I go to aim for about a 4" at the front from where I am now. That should not be too hard as at the momemt, I am 20-25mm lower than stock because of the winch etc!

Replicating your lift is about 1/3 of the cost of the suggestion from GHG, so I have not ruled it out yet, but I do also like the idea of keeping the caster within factory limits which will be possible using the GHG solution.

Still waiting to hear what Chris Conk at Low Range Offroad in the US comes up with and have not ruled out importing something. We've swapped a couple of emails, but nothing concrete has emerged.

Rod

[Paulie503]

i saw your billies at climax doug, you did a good job of them mate!

has anyone with billies had cv probs by going to 3 inches?

im in the hunt for a lift option myself and at the moment billies are at the top with lovel springs. the arb kit seems ok a fair bit cheaper too

cheers paulie

[rodw]

Paulie, A lot of people have said the ARB springs sag. Some others have said Kings are better than Lovells. Spoken to some suppliers who have indicated that if the springs sag, then it is because the wrong ones have been fitted (eg. Not alowing for bar and winch.)

Like you, i think th eBIllies are a good and respected option, but there are a couple of other options out there we need to discover (hopefully on this thread).

Rod

[Hilux Max]

Rod, I dont have any problems with my wheel alignment with my suspension lift. Have had it checked 2 or 3 times in the past year and its spot on, doesnt wander or anything.

I have heard of some tyre outlets who dont know what they are doing and lifted hiluxs tending to wander on the road afterwards.

Like I said, Im rapt with it, I travel atleast 600km per week and shes fine.

[ashy]

Regarding importing front suspension components from the US, be careful that the components are not biased toward left hand drive. I used to import Mustangs years ago, the front suspensions were the same as the Ford Falcon of the same year, but the left & right A arms were different on each, i.e. the Mustang was made to drive on the RH side and the Falcon on the left.
Ashy

[rodw]

For the record, I found the All-Pro site in the US:

[URL]http://allprooffroad.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=123[/URL]

This looks like the Kit GHG is talking about from Wizard but with different Upper control Arms. Their Upper Control Arms are only $500 which is $100 cheaper than Total Chaos and their site offers international shipping.

I had a look at this page on Customs which talks about duty on imports over $1,000 in value:

[URL]http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549[/URL]

Unfortunatley, a $1699 kkit in the US looks like it'll cost about $2,300 to import, so that makes Wizards prices of $2,300 pretty good value. So the moral of the story is that it is not worth importing anything worth more than AUD $1,000 due to duties and GST etc.

However, All-Pro might be a handy source for upper control arms if anybody is interested.

Think we've done this pretty much to death, so it looks like I'll have to make a decision soon.

Mmaaxx, note that these guys also sell long travel CV boots for the earlier tacoma, but say they don't fit the 2005+

Rod

[rodw]

[B]The Decision[/B]

Well with all of the help here and talking to a few suppliers, I think I have finally got a plan!

I talket to Brent again at Wizard at the Gold Coast and think I will build my rig progressively. I will go with his set up minus the upper control arms (UCA's) and set it at about 2" on the factory UCA's. Based on our discussion, that'll cost me about $1,400 plus say $200 or so to fit (which I might do myself anyway, should be pretty easy). As I am so much lower than stock now with the bar and winch, I will be expecting to go up 65-75mm from where she sits now based on the measusrements we have collected in another thread just recently. Won't look too funny with the rear left as is for a while I don't think.

So once I digest that spend, I'll do something about the rear suspension aiming at a 2" lift or so. That'll be the topic of another research thread.

Finally when I've got another spare $k or so closer to the end of my warranty maybe, I'll add the Total Chaos UCA's and crank her up to at least 3" at the front and the truck will look nicely level as the rear sits 25mm higher anyway. Maybe I might try 4" just for fun which is the max this setup will deliver. If I like this, I could slip in an inch packer under the rear springs or add some extended shackles or something quite economically but maybe questionable legally.

Mmaaxx, I nearly went with your mates setup, but the more I thought about it, this was a reasonable approach with a more local dealer. As GHG says, these struts will last a lifetime and Brent assures me they are rebuildable, revalveable and he can get parts over from the US in about 4 days. And he is only 40 minutes drive away.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help and advice. Don't hold your breath for some action becasue I want to make sure I got enough cash in the bank for our 3 week trip in a camper van in NZ in October... This might be a tax refund project....

Rod

[Hilux Max]

glad to hear you settled on something....hope to see progress pics soon.....

[david allan]

I have some OME Med front coil springs & have noticed that the distance between each coil is very very close.
I cant even get a finger between each coil.

I looked at the standard toyota front coils & there is much more space in between each coil.

I think the OME also have more coils.
Does it mean that the more coils there are the softer the ride is?
Also what kind of distance should there be in between each coil. Am thinking there shoud be more space as I cant even get my finger in between the coil?

[rodw]

nastie had some good info about extending front drive shafts in this thread.:

[URL]http://www.newhilux.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1764[/URL]

Basically what he says is that you need to use a Snake Racing Spacer rather than retubing your front shaft otherwise you don't get clearance on the cross-member.

Rod

[Hilux Max]

Just wondering, maybe some of you could chime in here, but has anyone fitted or know of a way to change or lengthen the front bump stops, so as to reduce UP travel when fitting larger tyres?

has anybody done this yet?

[rodw]

Mmaaxx,

for my Vitara, OME had a 20mm bump stop extender which was a 50mm piece of cylindrical rod with a tapped hole in the middle and a stud. Screwed off the factory rubber bump stop and screwed this on, then the stud, then the original bump stop. Don't think the Hilux is like that, but might give you some ideas.

But the really interesting thing I have seen is the Timbren Rubber Spring which is available for the Tacoma. See:

[URL]http://www.timbren.com/[/URL]

There is some stuff on the Tatora forum about this. So not only will it act as a bump stop, but it helps the suspension as well, by cushioning out gently.

I think the Timbren stuff would be usefull for what you want to do.

Rod

[Hilux Max]

Rod,

your refering to the top set of diagrams in the following link aren't you?

http://www.timbren.com/timbren-application-guides/application-pdfs/TOFTUN4.pdf

if so, it looks good, especially how their rubber stops still give some flex before completely stopping, so you dont get a hard stop.

thing is, is there something like this available here?

how similar are the taco bump stops to ours?

would hate to "trial and error" with a product from the states, been there before (with the Powerbox CR Plus) not keen to go through that hassle again.

I would thou love to get another bump stop, like the Timbren one, that would be .5 to 3/4" longer than what the standard one is as next time tyres need replacing I am keen on a set of SSR's in 285/75x16 (overall size 33.9x11.4, slightly narrower than what I got now, but an inch taller, half an inch above and below - link here -

http://www.intercotire.com/site34.php )

Because this tyre would be half an inch taller at the top of the tyre, thus my reasoning to achieve a half to 3/4 inch bumpstop. Oh, and no I wont be regearing, hoping to "power-unit" it somehow.

opinions? thoughts?

[rodw]

Mmaaxx,

Looks like a nice tyre.

That's the right link. As far as I know, the front end is identical based on discussions I have had with Wizard on the Gold Coast elsewhere in this thread. Give them a call, number is on page 1 above. He assured me that the Chaos upper control arm is a bolt in replacement. Surely the lower control arm is the same too!

You'd think Timbren would be represented in this country for agricultural equipment etc. Maybe you could email them and ask.

I know what you mean about bump stops and larger tyres. Also, by limiting the travel, you stay more legal too! (well maybe not with 33's).

My thoughts was that the Timbren would fix the bump stops on the front and you could achieve the same suspension limiting on the rear leves with air bag suspension bags which I am told limit travel by about 45mm.

Don't be concerned about the narrower tyre. Years ago at Ag. College, we did an experiment that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a tractor with single wheels carrying ballast the same weight as a set of clip on duals had more power at the drawbar than the same tractor running the duals. Reason was there is a lot more rolling resistance for the wider (dual) tyre that sapped up power. so by going to a narrower tyre, you could expect to get further than on a floatation tyre.

Rod

[rodw]

Thought it might be worth mentioning that if you are in Brissy than you can probably get the Total Chaos and Fox racing stuff we've been talking about from On Track 4WD in Moss St, Slacks Ck.

Brett at On Track and Brent at Wizard are mates. Brent has gone to the US for a couple of weeks, closed the Wizard shop while he is away and has diverted his phone to On Track. Brett has the Total Chaos arms on his race truck and told me that they are great gear...

Rod